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	<title>Comments on: ActiveGrid Acquires TurboAjax and Stakes Out Dojo</title>
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		<title>By: My Cup of Java - Today&#8217;s Top Blog Posts on Java - Powered by SocialRank</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/comment-page-1/#comment-173947</link>
		<dc:creator>My Cup of Java - Today&#8217;s Top Blog Posts on Java - Powered by SocialRank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 19:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/#comment-173947</guid>
		<description>[...] ActiveGrid Acquires TurboAjax and Stakes Out Dojo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ActiveGrid Acquires TurboAjax and Stakes Out Dojo [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Startup Signal - Today&#8217;s Top Blog Posts on Entrepreneurship - Powered by SocialRank</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/comment-page-1/#comment-173826</link>
		<dc:creator>Startup Signal - Today&#8217;s Top Blog Posts on Entrepreneurship - Powered by SocialRank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/#comment-173826</guid>
		<description>[...] ActiveGrid Acquires TurboAjax and Stakes Out Dojo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ActiveGrid Acquires TurboAjax and Stakes Out Dojo [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin Khodabakchian</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/comment-page-1/#comment-169271</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin Khodabakchian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/#comment-169271</guid>
		<description>Chris,
Thank you for the clarifications. It helps to see your big picture. It helps to understand that you are ready to dig very deep and re-invent Active Grid because the opportunity you are describing seems very far from the ActiveGrid roots. 

One advice is that if you are focusing on a next generation platform, focus on next generation applications (applications that were not possible in the past, not migration of existing client server application). And be ready to be patient for that new wave of application to emerge. 

It is the client server focus that threw me off.

Best, 
Edwin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,<br />
Thank you for the clarifications. It helps to see your big picture. It helps to understand that you are ready to dig very deep and re-invent Active Grid because the opportunity you are describing seems very far from the ActiveGrid roots. </p>
<p>One advice is that if you are focusing on a next generation platform, focus on next generation applications (applications that were not possible in the past, not migration of existing client server application). And be ready to be patient for that new wave of application to emerge. </p>
<p>It is the client server focus that threw me off.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Edwin</p>
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		<title>By: ckeene</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/comment-page-1/#comment-168922</link>
		<dc:creator>ckeene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/#comment-168922</guid>
		<description>Ah, the &quot;my-javascript-library-can-kick-your-javaqscript-library&#039;s-tush&quot; excitement has begun! Pardon my if I simply maintain a sphinx-like silence in response to the sticks and stones being hurled at poor Dojo in its tender 0.9 release state.
In answer to Edwin&#039;s much more substantive analysis of our business approach, I assure you that we are acting based on more than mere desperation (on the other hand, it is exactly the underlying air of desperation that makes life at a startup so sweet, n&#039;est pas?)
To address the points you raise:

  &lt;b&gt;One really, really secure ring to rule them all.&lt;/b&gt; Like everything else in the enterprise, assuming that one security authentication layer will solve all security issues within the enterprise is simplistic at best. To the extent that external platform providers produce useful widgets and services, security for an application which interacts with multiple services and domains is &quot;a hard problem with both technical and usability impacts,&quot; to quote &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://edwink.devhd.com/2007/09/16/mike-shaver-at-mozilla24/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;your last blog entry &lt;/a&gt;;-)
  &lt;b&gt;Innovator&#039;s dilemma redux.&lt;/b&gt; Every new wave of development architecture has spawned a new set of commercially successful development tools (e.g., stand-alone companies or acquired at a high valuation). Client/Server spawned PowerBuilder, Notes, Oracle Forms. 3-tier/J2EE spawned BEA, NetDynamics, JBoss etc. We believe that the new wave of rich internet apps and the democratizing approach of assembling apps primarily from pre-existing widgets and services will create enough a disruption in the market. Existing players will try to service this new market by adding lumpy kluges to their existing products. Most new players will get Silicon Valley disease and spend all their time fascinated with the possibilities of this shiny new technology rather than understanding how the technology addresses fundamental business challenges. We think Web 2.0 development tools represents a discontinuity and as such will be difficult for BEA et al to address (and even more difficult for techno-happy solutions like RoR) - we can agree to disagree on this, as only time will provide the proof on the existence or non-existence of this market  ;-)
  &lt;b&gt;On making money supporting open source. &lt;/b&gt;I fully accept that JBoss did not make a great deal of money providing commercial support for Hibernate (although getting bought for $400M by Red Hat on a $15M revenue stream is a trick I would not mind emulating). I think you misunderstand the reason JBoss supported Hibernate, however. JBoss needed Hibernate to succeed in order for their overall J2EE stack to succeed - the revenue they made off of Hibernate support was completely beside the point. In the same way, we at ActiveGrid need an open-source AJAX toolkit to succeed in order for our overall strategy to work. We just happen to have picked Dojo (again, reasonable people can disagree on whether this is the optimal choice, but we are confident in our decision). It is immaterial to the success of our strategy whether we have a profitable Dojo support business. It is crucial to the success of our strategy that we be able to count on enterprise adoption of an open-source AJAX toolkit.

You raise very good points. There is a great deal of uncertainty in the market right now. To us, that uncertainty spells opportunity!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, the &#8220;my-javascript-library-can-kick-your-javaqscript-library&#8217;s-tush&#8221; excitement has begun! Pardon my if I simply maintain a sphinx-like silence in response to the sticks and stones being hurled at poor Dojo in its tender 0.9 release state.<br />
In answer to Edwin&#8217;s much more substantive analysis of our business approach, I assure you that we are acting based on more than mere desperation (on the other hand, it is exactly the underlying air of desperation that makes life at a startup so sweet, n&#8217;est pas?)<br />
To address the points you raise:</p>
<p>  <b>One really, really secure ring to rule them all.</b> Like everything else in the enterprise, assuming that one security authentication layer will solve all security issues within the enterprise is simplistic at best. To the extent that external platform providers produce useful widgets and services, security for an application which interacts with multiple services and domains is &#8220;a hard problem with both technical and usability impacts,&#8221; to quote <a HREF="http://edwink.devhd.com/2007/09/16/mike-shaver-at-mozilla24/" rel="nofollow">your last blog entry </a> <img src='http://jeffnolan.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
  <b>Innovator&#8217;s dilemma redux.</b> Every new wave of development architecture has spawned a new set of commercially successful development tools (e.g., stand-alone companies or acquired at a high valuation). Client/Server spawned PowerBuilder, Notes, Oracle Forms. 3-tier/J2EE spawned BEA, NetDynamics, JBoss etc. We believe that the new wave of rich internet apps and the democratizing approach of assembling apps primarily from pre-existing widgets and services will create enough a disruption in the market. Existing players will try to service this new market by adding lumpy kluges to their existing products. Most new players will get Silicon Valley disease and spend all their time fascinated with the possibilities of this shiny new technology rather than understanding how the technology addresses fundamental business challenges. We think Web 2.0 development tools represents a discontinuity and as such will be difficult for BEA et al to address (and even more difficult for techno-happy solutions like RoR) &#8211; we can agree to disagree on this, as only time will provide the proof on the existence or non-existence of this market  <img src='http://jeffnolan.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
  <b>On making money supporting open source. </b>I fully accept that JBoss did not make a great deal of money providing commercial support for Hibernate (although getting bought for $400M by Red Hat on a $15M revenue stream is a trick I would not mind emulating). I think you misunderstand the reason JBoss supported Hibernate, however. JBoss needed Hibernate to succeed in order for their overall J2EE stack to succeed &#8211; the revenue they made off of Hibernate support was completely beside the point. In the same way, we at ActiveGrid need an open-source AJAX toolkit to succeed in order for our overall strategy to work. We just happen to have picked Dojo (again, reasonable people can disagree on whether this is the optimal choice, but we are confident in our decision). It is immaterial to the success of our strategy whether we have a profitable Dojo support business. It is crucial to the success of our strategy that we be able to count on enterprise adoption of an open-source AJAX toolkit.</p>
<p>You raise very good points. There is a great deal of uncertainty in the market right now. To us, that uncertainty spells opportunity!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Joe Developer</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/comment-page-1/#comment-168757</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Developer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/#comment-168757</guid>
		<description>Agree with Edwin on this... Every enterprise development tool targets client/server developers, from NetBeans to Eclipse Web Tools Project to Oracle Forms.  NetBeans in particular does an excellent job of data-driven app development.  And why pick Dojo as their UI library?  &quot;Quirky&quot; is really putting it lightly, it is an obtuse, huge pile of code frankensteined together from numerous libraries.  There is a reason everyone is using GWT, JQuery, or Prototype nowadays!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with Edwin on this&#8230; Every enterprise development tool targets client/server developers, from NetBeans to Eclipse Web Tools Project to Oracle Forms.  NetBeans in particular does an excellent job of data-driven app development.  And why pick Dojo as their UI library?  &#8220;Quirky&#8221; is really putting it lightly, it is an obtuse, huge pile of code frankensteined together from numerous libraries.  There is a reason everyone is using GWT, JQuery, or Prototype nowadays!</p>
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		<title>By: Edwin Khodabakchian</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/comment-page-1/#comment-168751</link>
		<dc:creator>Edwin Khodabakchian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2007/09/16/activegrid-acquires-dojo-to/#comment-168751</guid>
		<description>This seems like a very desperate move: 1) The security problem for mash-ups is real but in the enterprise (where all the existing client server applications live), it will be addressed using single-sign on on top of a directory. This is not a development problem. 2) I am not sure how the positioning regarding client server migration is clearer: they are now going head to head with Oracle, BEA, IBM, MSFT, Ruby on Rails and any other development solutions - all of them have support for fancy widget libraries. 3) finally, there is no way anyone in the enterprise is going to pay any meaningful amount of money to get support for Dojo. As a comparison, JBoss was not able to get any revenue $ for hibernate - one of the best and most widely used ORM libraries available. Developers/enterprises do not like to pay for libraries. These guys are going to need to dig *much* deeper if they want to find a clear positioning which makes sense!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems like a very desperate move: 1) The security problem for mash-ups is real but in the enterprise (where all the existing client server applications live), it will be addressed using single-sign on on top of a directory. This is not a development problem. 2) I am not sure how the positioning regarding client server migration is clearer: they are now going head to head with Oracle, BEA, IBM, MSFT, Ruby on Rails and any other development solutions &#8211; all of them have support for fancy widget libraries. 3) finally, there is no way anyone in the enterprise is going to pay any meaningful amount of money to get support for Dojo. As a comparison, JBoss was not able to get any revenue $ for hibernate &#8211; one of the best and most widely used ORM libraries available. Developers/enterprises do not like to pay for libraries. These guys are going to need to dig *much* deeper if they want to find a clear positioning which makes sense!</p>
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