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	<title>Comments on: The U.N. Still Wants to Control Your Internet</title>
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	<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/</link>
	<description>Jeff Nolan&#039;s take on innovation, entrepreneurship, tech and stuff that interests me</description>
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		<title>By: Thomas Otter</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-30364</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Otter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2006 17:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/#comment-30364</guid>
		<description>It is a sad reflection of our world in that so much innovation comes from war or the threat of it. 
I don&#039;t agree with you on ICANN, but we&#039;ll park that.  
The talk of DARPA makes me nostalgic. My very first post was on that.
http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/03/13/hello-world/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a sad reflection of our world in that so much innovation comes from war or the threat of it.<br />
I don&#8217;t agree with you on ICANN, but we&#8217;ll park that.<br />
The talk of DARPA makes me nostalgic. My very first post was on that.<br />
<a href="http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/03/13/hello-world/" rel="nofollow">http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/03/13/hello-world/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-30327</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/#comment-30327</guid>
		<description>Thanks Thomas, again a very thoughtful comment. 

Let&#039;s be clear about something, Icann is not the U.S. government nor does it represent the U.S. government. We should also take a second to up and thank the U.S. military for giving the Internet to the world with no strings attached. Even the U.S. Congress complains that Icann is not subject to U.S. government oversight.

Icann manages DNS, that&#039;s it. Icann does not govern the Internet from a policy or regulatory standpoint. Nobody does and that&#039;s why it works. It can be improved but only through an informed process that relies on the involvement, and not as the sole participant either, of *democratic* states, kind of like NATO. My view is unwavering on this point, if you don&#039;t have a truly democratic government, then you have no seat at the table overseeing something that is entirely about access to information. That means yes to Germany, Costa Rica, South Africa, etc., and no to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China... it will never happen but I will continue to fight from the position that anything that allows undemocratic and authoritarian governments to have a hand in global internet governance is a very very bad idea.

Lastly, I think that as a European you may be at risk of underestimating the skepticism that Americans have to the idea that governments can effectively reshape societies or efficiently run anything. Indeed, the Internet has been the single greatest event shaping global society for the last 50 years and government had nothing to do with it other than originally funding it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Thomas, again a very thoughtful comment. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be clear about something, Icann is not the U.S. government nor does it represent the U.S. government. We should also take a second to up and thank the U.S. military for giving the Internet to the world with no strings attached. Even the U.S. Congress complains that Icann is not subject to U.S. government oversight.</p>
<p>Icann manages DNS, that&#8217;s it. Icann does not govern the Internet from a policy or regulatory standpoint. Nobody does and that&#8217;s why it works. It can be improved but only through an informed process that relies on the involvement, and not as the sole participant either, of *democratic* states, kind of like NATO. My view is unwavering on this point, if you don&#8217;t have a truly democratic government, then you have no seat at the table overseeing something that is entirely about access to information. That means yes to Germany, Costa Rica, South Africa, etc., and no to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China&#8230; it will never happen but I will continue to fight from the position that anything that allows undemocratic and authoritarian governments to have a hand in global internet governance is a very very bad idea.</p>
<p>Lastly, I think that as a European you may be at risk of underestimating the skepticism that Americans have to the idea that governments can effectively reshape societies or efficiently run anything. Indeed, the Internet has been the single greatest event shaping global society for the last 50 years and government had nothing to do with it other than originally funding it.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Otter</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-30262</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Otter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/#comment-30262</guid>
		<description>Jeff,
I dont want to get into a debate about the broader UN issues. You have a start up to run, and I need to climb the greasy corporate pole. The UN vs US debate obsures the issue and turns it into a patriotism thing. This is not good for anyone. 

I believe that the Internet belongs to us all, not just the US. 

I&#039;ll point you to a couple of resources.

1. Check out what the WGIG (The UN appointed group) has to say. http://www.wgig.org/ section III is especially interesting. This is not the rantings of the ignorant, but the result of serious research and dialogue.

2. Also see this blog. Brett Fausett. for instance..
http://blog.lextext.com/blog/_archives/2006/9/19/2341244.html

3. Not all is well with ICANN. Have a look at http://www.icannwatch.org/mission.shtml

4. The Internet Governance Project is a great source of info, it provides lots of background on the issues and is staffed by some really smart folks.
http://www.internetgovernance.org/
I picked up this quote there
Current Oversight Mechanisms for ICANN
One of the destructive myths surrounding the current dialogue is that there is currently no political oversight over the Internet. In many  countries, but especially the US, the debate on oversight has been framed as a clash between the option of an Internet free from
government and an Internet that is â€œrun by the United Nations.â€ That is a false dichotomy, for two reasons. First, it confuses narrow Internet governance (overseeing ICANN) with broader oversight (â€œrunning the Internetâ€). Second, it ignores the fact that political oversight of ICANN exists, but is unilateral: a single government (the US) actively supervises ICANN. Political oversight of ICANN is conducted using three instruments:
Â· The ICANN Memorandum of Understanding
Â· The IANA contract
Â· The US Cooperative Agreement with VeriSign, Inc.
These contracts are held together by a fourth element:
Â· A sweeping U.S. assertion of policy authority over the DNS root
see  http://www.internetgovernance.org/pdf/political-oversight.pdf

5. Check out Froomkin, Mueller, Post, Lessig, Weinberg, these are respected North American Academics researching internet governance. It is a complex topic. 

Political grandstanding will not help anyone here, but let me have a dig anyway. I refer you to a post I did a couple of months ago. http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/08/07/from-my-head-to-paperrfid-and-the-long-and-winding/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,<br />
I dont want to get into a debate about the broader UN issues. You have a start up to run, and I need to climb the greasy corporate pole. The UN vs US debate obsures the issue and turns it into a patriotism thing. This is not good for anyone. </p>
<p>I believe that the Internet belongs to us all, not just the US. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll point you to a couple of resources.</p>
<p>1. Check out what the WGIG (The UN appointed group) has to say. <a href="http://www.wgig.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.wgig.org/</a> section III is especially interesting. This is not the rantings of the ignorant, but the result of serious research and dialogue.</p>
<p>2. Also see this blog. Brett Fausett. for instance..<br />
<a href="http://blog.lextext.com/blog/_archives/2006/9/19/2341244.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.lextext.com/blog/_archives/2006/9/19/2341244.html</a></p>
<p>3. Not all is well with ICANN. Have a look at <a href="http://www.icannwatch.org/mission.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.icannwatch.org/mission.shtml</a></p>
<p>4. The Internet Governance Project is a great source of info, it provides lots of background on the issues and is staffed by some really smart folks.<br />
<a href="http://www.internetgovernance.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.internetgovernance.org/</a><br />
I picked up this quote there<br />
Current Oversight Mechanisms for ICANN<br />
One of the destructive myths surrounding the current dialogue is that there is currently no political oversight over the Internet. In many  countries, but especially the US, the debate on oversight has been framed as a clash between the option of an Internet free from<br />
government and an Internet that is â€œrun by the United Nations.â€ That is a false dichotomy, for two reasons. First, it confuses narrow Internet governance (overseeing ICANN) with broader oversight (â€œrunning the Internetâ€). Second, it ignores the fact that political oversight of ICANN exists, but is unilateral: a single government (the US) actively supervises ICANN. Political oversight of ICANN is conducted using three instruments:<br />
Â· The ICANN Memorandum of Understanding<br />
Â· The IANA contract<br />
Â· The US Cooperative Agreement with VeriSign, Inc.<br />
These contracts are held together by a fourth element:<br />
Â· A sweeping U.S. assertion of policy authority over the DNS root<br />
see  <a href="http://www.internetgovernance.org/pdf/political-oversight.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.internetgovernance.org/pdf/political-oversight.pdf</a></p>
<p>5. Check out Froomkin, Mueller, Post, Lessig, Weinberg, these are respected North American Academics researching internet governance. It is a complex topic. </p>
<p>Political grandstanding will not help anyone here, but let me have a dig anyway. I refer you to a post I did a couple of months ago. <a href="http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/08/07/from-my-head-to-paperrfid-and-the-long-and-winding/" rel="nofollow">http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/08/07/from-my-head-to-paperrfid-and-the-long-and-winding/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-30086</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/#comment-30086</guid>
		<description>A good argument Thomas, but it obscures the fact that Icann is not controlled by any government, U.S. or otherwise, and has an outstanding track record for doing no harm to something that works exceptionally well given it&#039;s scope and dimension. 

I agree that the U.N. membership features many good countries that want reform, but were the U.N. itself capable of reform and the U.N. leadership accountable to the member countries that want reform, why haven&#039;t we seen it in even its most minimal form?

Take the WHO as an example, which by all accounts is considered to be a well run organization that is a bright spot for the U.N. Having said that, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is widely considering to have surpassed the WHO in Africa in dealing with the  2 issues that most affect premature mortality in Africa - malaria and clean water. Is anyone going to suggest that the BMGF should come under U.N. oversight because it is currently operating without any? The Internet is no different. 

To be blunt, Kofi Annon should stop screwing around trying to get his hand on things that work and get on the with the business of fixing the stuff he is actually responsible for that are tragically failing us all. That man has no credibility across a wide range of constituencies, it&#039;s time for him to move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good argument Thomas, but it obscures the fact that Icann is not controlled by any government, U.S. or otherwise, and has an outstanding track record for doing no harm to something that works exceptionally well given it&#8217;s scope and dimension. </p>
<p>I agree that the U.N. membership features many good countries that want reform, but were the U.N. itself capable of reform and the U.N. leadership accountable to the member countries that want reform, why haven&#8217;t we seen it in even its most minimal form?</p>
<p>Take the WHO as an example, which by all accounts is considered to be a well run organization that is a bright spot for the U.N. Having said that, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is widely considering to have surpassed the WHO in Africa in dealing with the  2 issues that most affect premature mortality in Africa &#8211; malaria and clean water. Is anyone going to suggest that the BMGF should come under U.N. oversight because it is currently operating without any? The Internet is no different. </p>
<p>To be blunt, Kofi Annon should stop screwing around trying to get his hand on things that work and get on the with the business of fixing the stuff he is actually responsible for that are tragically failing us all. That man has no credibility across a wide range of constituencies, it&#8217;s time for him to move on.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Otter</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-30039</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Otter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Oct 2006 10:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/#comment-30039</guid>
		<description>deleted a sentence in the 3rd para. meant to say countries with good track records....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>deleted a sentence in the 3rd para. meant to say countries with good track records&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Otter</title>
		<link>http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-30034</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Otter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2006/10/02/the-un-still-wants-to-control-your-internet/#comment-30034</guid>
		<description>Jeff,
There was quite a good discussion on Internet governance over at Roughtype some time ago. http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2005/10/americas_intern.php

5-6 years ago many of us outside the US were relatively comfortable with the idea of a America as a Benign big brother. Today, I&#039;m not.  It is not just about a more bellicose foreign policy, but issues such as net neutrality have a global impact. 

It is true that the UN is made up of some countries that have a pretty dismal record, but most of the UN is made up of countriesI would much rather than the US help reform the UN and make it better than undermine it.   

Although far from perfect the WIPO is probably a better example of the type of governance we need for the Internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,<br />
There was quite a good discussion on Internet governance over at Roughtype some time ago. <a href="http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2005/10/americas_intern.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2005/10/americas_intern.php</a></p>
<p>5-6 years ago many of us outside the US were relatively comfortable with the idea of a America as a Benign big brother. Today, I&#8217;m not.  It is not just about a more bellicose foreign policy, but issues such as net neutrality have a global impact. </p>
<p>It is true that the UN is made up of some countries that have a pretty dismal record, but most of the UN is made up of countriesI would much rather than the US help reform the UN and make it better than undermine it.   </p>
<p>Although far from perfect the WIPO is probably a better example of the type of governance we need for the Internet.</p>
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